DEVIN TOWNSEND – interview

Devin Townsend live in Oslo. Photo by Andrea Chirulescu

POWERNERD – noun

1.  –  A person of any gender who has, through tenacity and perseverance, turned what society may deem as a ‘weakness’ into a superpower.

2. –  A total fucking badass.

3. – You.

We have recently received the news that a new album from Devin Townsend will see the light of day towards the end of October. Even if in a previous interview we had with Devin he was talking about an upcoming Moth massive album, life had other plans and the Canadian artist added this Powernerd release to a trilogy, next to the Moth and Axolotl.

“It was a conscious thing,” Devin says of his brand-new album, the music on which he wrote in just 11 days. “I thought, ‘I’ve spent so much time overthinking every aspect of my work – what would happen if I didn’t?’ Maybe I would have the opportunity to be a bit more direct with what it is that I’m trying to do. I really wanted to see if I could cut through some of the meandering.”

We were rather curious about the story of why this album happened and since any chance to talk to Devin is really welcome since he’s such a genuine person to talk to, we had an online call which you can watch or read below, depending on your preferences.

E.T. : Last time we happened to have a chat you told me that up next is The Moth but now all of a sudden you come with this…other thing, PowerNerd. As I have read from the notes that were sent by the label, is this part of some trilogy now? Powernerd, The Moth and Axolotl?

DT: There is. And there is one other project called Ruby Quaker, which is a little YouTube show that I’ve been working on.

The idea is, in a sense, it’s like Devin Townsend Project where I put out Ki, Addicted, Deconstruction and Ghost. And between those four projects it described a psychological progression at the time. I was having kids and and things that went into it were all kind of connected to those four records. In a similar way, what I’m doing right now, it was all written at a certain time. So when I write, if I write a commercial song, I’ll put it on a pile.  If I write orchestral song and put it in a pile and eventually they just they eventually stack up. But what happens is, because they were all written during a certain time, they all are thematically connected.

And the theme for this particular period is like “How do you get past your fear of yourself?” Powernerd ended up being this record that was written during a lot of grief and the process of working through that is similar to the process of like any sort of transcendent moment in your life, whether or not you’re getting past trauma, or you’re getting past pain, or you’re getting past an ex partner or whatever it is.

I think the process is similar, so it just seems to me that Ruby Quaker, Moth. Axolotl and Powernerd are all about the idea of getting over yourself in a sense. Or actualizing your potential, whatever that that description is, it’s all rooted in the same thing.

ET: I’m looking forward to hear them all in a row at some point, whenever that happens in a year, or two.
DT: I think they stand on their own, more so than being connected musically. It’s almost like what I was trying to represent is that that process of grief is gonna be different from one person to the next, right? But but the mechanism is the same. It’s like the stages that you have to go through are gonna be the same for something like Powernerd as it is, or for something like Moth which is more like a dark, heavy opera.

ET: It says that you have spent 11 days to write this album, but it’s not like you started on day one and only wrote for this album and put everything else aside. It’s just ideas that you have laying around and then you say OK, they match with this thing and then 11 days you spent putting this thing together. And the rest of the year for the other stuff or whatever
DT: Yes. Correct. And I mean, there were certain songs that I wrote during those 11 days. But for the most part, exactly how you say it’s like.

Because I write all the time, I don’t complete albums all the time, I just have these kind of cliff notes, so if one of those piles gets high enough that you feel you could get an entire statement out of it, then that’s where I become interested enough in it to put it together into a full sentiment and point of view.

ET: From that point of view I think the connectivity will be interesting when everything comes out
DT: The funny thing about this one is that it’s much less conscious than I had done in the past and to make that clearer. Powernerd was meant to be fun. It was meant to be this silly, stupid rock record that I put out in the beginning of it to say “hey everybody, I know it’s been difficult., I know everybody’s got a lot of complications in their life. Here’s something easy to start this process.”.
But how I didn’t expect life to turn out. Is that…
ET: Life?
DT: Life! We went through losing people right at the same time as making this record and it f’ing kicked my ass. I’ve never…I don’t know. Maybe it’s just because my defenses were low based on the deadline that I had imposed for myself with the record. Maybe it was just a burnt out. Maybe I just been working for so long that I just eventually it’s like, you burn the candle at both ends and it catches up with you.
Yeah, whatever it was, when I when we went through this loss. All the emotions came up and I’ve never had to deal with that. I never allowed that, I guess, but this one was too much, so it broke through. And then all of a sudden, before I knew it, this record that started off as being this fun, kind of like dumb party record ended up about, well, how do you deal with losing people? How do you deal with it?

And because I hadn’t written the lyrics yet, either, during those 11 days, when I finally started writing lyrics, all the initial ideas that I had just seemed so f’kin stupid that it all just seemed like “Now what?” So it became this very accurate representation of a part of my life that was beyond my control in many ways.
And as a result of that, all there is is a weird record in that sense It became a very important one to me because it was the first time in my life that I felt like I had no choice but to surrender to it. Up to that point, it happened that my grandparents died or somebody passed away and you shut down and you don’t think about it and you just work. I guess I thought I had dealt with these things because I had thought about them, but this was the first time where I couldn’t think about it. I was just f’kin sad. I couldn’t stop crying and I’ve never have I dealt with that. So what started as “this is gonna be a dumb party record” ended up being this record that I was so depressed while making. The way that it represents the theme is that by the time we get to Ruby Quaker at the end of the album, where it’s all like “OK, It’s the next day! Where were we? Oh, your buddy comes by. You want a cup of coffee? Yeah, I like coffee. Sure. “

ET: It now makes sense. I heard the album earlier today. That last song had no connection to the rest of the album but ok, cool, thanks for explaining.
DT: That’s the explanation for it. By the time you get to goodbye, where you finally accept that you’ve lost somebody, well, life has to move on. You know you have to get through it. And so even the name, Powernerd, that’s what it’s meant to represent. It’s something in the lines of “yeah, we got through it, but it took strengths. We didn’t give up” and that’s the whole point, right?

I guess I just recognized recently that I’ve been dealing with depression for a few years and I hadn’t recognized it. This was the first time where I did. It just it all happened at the same time. So it made it like weird

ET: Is it a relief that you recognize it?
DT: Maybe on some level, because I think it’s healthier than to hold it in, but it hasn’t been easy, it’s been embarrassing. And then once you start recognizing, it’s foolish not to admit it. It’s foolish to say stuff like “this doesn’t bother me or whatever”. It’s much easier to say it does f’kin bother me. And I didn’t have the toolkit to deal with it, so it came out in a very explosive way. I was trying to write the lyrics and just I couldn’t sing. I was so much… sad and I’ve never dealt with it. It was so new! I would lock the studio doors and close the window so Donna would see me, you know?

ET: When you mentioned that it started at the silly thing and then it turned into a sad story, it reminded me of a story of a friend whose grandpa died. And he told me about the funeral. Actually, I think it’s so sad that we’re not doing this kind of stuff. At the funeral and the service after they sat down and told all the jokes and all the funny stories of the grandpa. And that was one of the most inspiring story I ever heard. That’s how people should be remembered, it should be because through their silliness and through the funny stuff they did.
DT: I wonder, yeah. Otherwise, I think what it comes across as is that you have answers. It’s so important for me to say that I don’t have any answers. All I’m trying to do is figure out myself as I go along and try to be the best I can be for my kids or my my relationships or
ET: Even for yourself at the end of the day
DT: Yeah. And I think that the strength for me at this point comes in admitting where I’m not strong. I think so much of what we have as a society thrown at us is that everybody has to know everything. We have to be perfect, right? But it’s so much easier to say “Hey, by the way, I’m not that at all and I’m very confused and I’m sad and I lost people and I don’t know what to do”

That seemed to be a much more relatable sentiment for a record like this, if that’s what I was going through, rather than try to make some this that sounds like you’ve got answers and I know “this is what you do and this is not”. I’m just like “I don’t f’kin know, man! It’s been brutal” And I guess that surprised me because, as I said before, I don’t plan what I’m gonna write, I just write. So it’s often more surprising for me when I come up with a record like Powernerd, than it is for the audience. They’re saying “ ohh yeah, so you’re doing like Bon Jovi songs now or something” And all I can say is “I didn’t know, I just started writing and this is what happened. I don’t know what to tell you”
ET: You can also try some ABBA songs
DT: The thing is I never I never think about it. It would be great if at one point all of a sudden I’m like “Hey, you know what I’m doing now is an Abba song”. But until such time that it happens to me, I don’t feel like I can control them.

ET The Quaker song is like an Elvis-Johnny Cash kind of mix. Are you aware of it?
DT: Yeah, well, that was my first concert. Johnny Cash.
So this this is the first album of a new era for me. But it’s not a perfect album. It’s really coming from a place where the last two years have been really difficult.
ET:  Who makes a perfect album?
DT: I guess if you made it perfect album, there’d be no reason to make another.
ET: Exactly!
DT: I’m not even trying to make excuses for it. I’m just saying that it’s where I’m at as a person is a point where I’m much more honest with myself than I’ve ever been. And I wanted to represent that with this record.

ET: You’re admitting that you’re more honest with yourself. And this is not something that happened all your life. Just like you say, you kind of figure it out. During the past few years. Was it a personal choice or what triggered this shift toward more self honesty, introspection?
DT: Fatigue.
ET: Seriously?
DT: Seriously, I think so.
ET:  Interesting.
DT: To a degree, it’s like the energy that goes into pretending you’re something that you’re not gets sort of taken away when you have to deal with real emotions. And so at that point, when I was really at my lowest and I was trying to think up lyrics, I thought, why would I f’kin bother trying to pretend to be something other than what I am.

Take the song “Gratitude”, it is important for me. And it’s not ironic. Even though it’s 80s arena rock stuff. When I was really sad there, I remember thinking “how fortunate are we to go through these emotions? How fortunate are we to have the opportunity to be present with real f’kin emotions like this?” This is not kids stuff. This is not an approximation of it. It’s not a romantic vision of it. It’s like snot. And and I remember thinking “I’m really grateful for this because if you spend all your life repressed and you’re not participating in emotions, it colors your work, it colors your music, it colors your interpersonal relationships. It colors your ability to be real with yourself and with others.

To be forced by circumstance to say that “I have no more defense, I can’t, I’m just so f’kin depressed” or “I’m really angry” Or really, whatever the emotion is, if it’s a real one, I think it takes away your energy to pretend you’re anything other.
So I would say fatigue is really what helped.
ET: Wow, thanks! I wasn’t having any expectation, but it was unexpected in the lack of expectations.
DT: No, it’s good for me just to say it out loud because I recognize, in a similar way as the music reveals myself to myself, having to rationalize it also does that right?
ET: Thanks for your honesty. I appreciate that.

ET: Five years ago, or ten, would you have ended up writing an album in 11 days, even if you had a bunch of songs ideas ready made? Or is this something that you can do because of your current experience?
DT: I’ve done that with other records in the past. Yeah, like I did that with Epicloud. Just to just to clarify the statement, it it can be very sort of like a clickbait to say that I wrote a record 11 days when the truth of it is that a lot of these rifts and ideas have been around for for years. But I compiled it And that process isn’t as labor intensive. It just requires an emotional pointedness. You have to be really available for that pile of music to see whether or not it appeals to any fundamental part of you. That requires a lot of focus, more so than the writing of it. It’s the focus of trying to establish what its theme is and what its intention is going to be. And there’s some people I’m sure that don’t put any thought into that, they don’t care what it is. For them it’s just the next record. This is where they’re at.

But for me, my work has so much invested and, whether or not it’s important is beside the point, but to me, so much of my work is invested in what are people gonna come away from this feeling? At the end of this experience, what do I want to say? And just identifying what it is that you want to say is so much work because you have to go through your own process of “Well, where am I full of s*t?” “Where am I lying to myself? Where am I not seeing my delusions?”

And then just the act of focusing on a group of material, in my experience, really that’s how it works. It irons it out just by the focus. The focus was hand in hand with trauma. By then by the end of it, I realized what this record is meant to represent is the process and the stages of grief.

Is it the best vehicle to adhere that to? I mean probably not, but it was the only thing that seemed authentic at the time. I said “this is what you’re f’kin going through! To try and make it about anything else is a waste of time. It just seems like so much effort for … what is what is your point?”

When I was finally able to identify that if I’m going to do this and if circumstances put me in this situation with this tight deadline and also this emotional upheaval, then it only seems appropriate that it’s about that.

Ten, twenty years ago, would I have done that? Probably. It would have been different, but it’s the same process.

ET: Yeah, I understand. Thanks.
Has any other human being been involved in playing the instruments or you recorded everything with machines and effects that you use?

DT:  I got Darby Todd on drums, Diego Tejeda on keyboards, additional keyboards Jamie Jesse to help me out and then I’ve just got a group of musicians/engineers/friends who I was able to have as a council. As I was going through some of the more difficult moments I had people that would help me with things like editing and such.

ET: Casualties of Cool. It’s one of my favorite albums. I think your Facebook page got hacked or deleted. I can no longer the updates on it. But I believe you met this year right? With Ché and Morgan
DT: Yeah, we did. Absolutely.
ET: Can I get any info on that or it’s still in the secret phase?
DT: Ché is a brilliant artist and a very dear friend to me. When we first met each other, we were in a very different place. But now, when we jam, what we’re having to do is we’re having to learn about each other because it’s been 10 years. So now we’re figuring out who each other are and that just takes time. It’s as simple as that.

We got together and we made some progress, but it was like 2 steps forward, 2 steps backwards. The thing that made that first record work and that collaboration work is the fact that we don’t rush. Now we’re ten years older and and we’re ten years different.
We have to take it slow because our our lives are so different now. So different than when we met.But it’s fun. I really enjoy that project
ET: So it’s not finalized by any means?
DT: No, it isn’t.

ET: Ok, thanks! So there’s no secrets.
Why do you name one of the songs Jainism? Do you have any connections to that?
DT: The point of that song and the reason why it’s called that is it seems to be because I’m so black and white with my thinking. It’s like all or nothing, and so many people in my life, friends, loved ones, coworkers, have always been telling me “Devin. There’s shades of grey! It’s not just either you’re doing this or it’s off”
One of the main hang ups that I’ve had, as ridiculous as it sounds, I can only tell you the truth – it’s that I either become a full on musician and I dedicate all my energy to it and all the artistic bulls*. The Vincent van Gogh, chop your ear off, tortured artist bulls*.
Or you become a monk.
ET: OK, two extreme there.
DT: I’ve been married for so many years, have kids and friends and career and all this stuff. But in the back of my head, it’s something like everything that isn’t absolute purity is a distraction from my life’s goal, which is to find peace.
So it’s either:

• Heavy metal. Watch the world burn. Eat steak. Sex, drugs, rock’n’roll
• Complete chaste aesthetic, like monk lifestyle, living in a cave.

And for whatever reason, the dilemma for me has been “dude, there’s a compromise to be had here. There’s gotta be a compromise. It’s not always on or always off” But in the spirit of just being honest, I’ve always been like that. I’m either it’s that or that, and there’s no choice.
So Jainism as a spiritual discipline, I’ve always thought of it as being the extreme end of it. You don’t eat anything that that suffers. as a result, you don’t walk on insects, you wear a mask, so you’re not killing microbes. So it is either gonna be just f’kin chaotic bulls*t like it is, or we go to Jainism.
In no way am I saying that this is a rational or healthy thought nor is this something that I subscribed to. But if I’m asked, I’ve always been so extreme with my thinking that it’s either this or that.

ET: Back to the Ruby Qaucker. It’s another song about coffee, just pretty much like all Ziltoid ones.
DT: Coffee’s alright, though, you know. The reason why I focus on coffee is, not like a fetish….
ET: Are you sure?
DT: But I use it, I use it as a artistic object that is meant to not talk about coffee, but more to represent something benign that gives you a little bit of joy. It’s like. Coffee is just, it’s just, it’s nothing. It’s this bitter liquid and you start your day with this bitter liquid.
BUT it makes me happy. And I really like it.

And the point of Ruby Quaker. First off, Ruby Quaker is a name, is a type of moth that they have in the eastern United States. And I built a spaceship that we’re gonna be putting out a YouTube series called the Ruby Quaker Show where I’m flying into Space to try and find the music for the moth. Part of what keeps the Ruby Quaker going is just me on this spaceship and I developed a coffee with a company. And so Ruby Quaker is about the Ruby Quaker, which is a moth, which is about a spaceship which is about this coffee thing.

But in regards to what it means to Powernerd. After the song Goodbye, the whole idea with that song is that finally you have said goodbye. You’ve admitted that someone has gone and then, at the end of that song “Goodbye”, there’s still 3 minutes of ambiance, where you’re meant to just process it. That’s because that’s song f’s me up and this way, at the end of it, it gives me 3 minutes to kind of settle down. And then when Ruby Quaker starts, the idea is yes, it was brutal. Yes, that was difficult. Yes, that was at the limit of your capacity to handle certain emotions. Yet, next day, next morning, what do we do?
ET: There’s coffee
DT: There’s coffee.ee? So that’s the point of it.

ET: Interesting. Do you think you’ll be able to perform live these emotional songs?
DT: Yeah. For sure. It just the physicality of singing this s*t live, because of the nature of how I sing, is such that most of my mental energy goes into the…
ET: OK, you don’t transpose into sad person
DT: to a degree sometimes, but I have enough practice at the live stuff so when that’s starting to happen, I can use some techniques in order to focus. Because I think that it’s one thing to participate in those emotions authentically, but it’s another thing if they start to control you
And sometimes it does control you. It’s as simple as that. But as a performer, it’s not very efficient.  

ET: Alright, thank you so very much for your time and honest answers
DT: I appreciate it. Have a good day. I will talk to you some other time
ET: Thank you!